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service centre folder file pal.db stopping one drive on win 10 [en-us]

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    Simon ORorke (Edited )

    A few days ago I too started having exactly the same problem with OneDrive unable to synchronise pal.db.  I found that this is was due to the file being accessed by ntkdaemon, a Windows Startup processes apparently put there when we used Native Access to update our Native Instruments software.  To prove this on your computer, try renaming pal.db.  You should get an error message saying it cannot be done because ntkdaemon is accessing the file.

    I found this useful forum thread https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/ntkdaemon.348397/ , from which it is clear that ntkdaemon is of no use to me.  So I have just disabled ntkdaemon from starting automatically (from the Start-up page of Windows 10's Task Manager.)  It is probably safe for you to do that too.

    In order for OneDrive synchronisation to complete in your current Windows session, you will also need to stop the currently running instance of ntkdaemon (from Task Manager's Processes page).

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    Peter Bailey

    You are right I disabled that NI ntkdaemon from the task manager and five or six other files were synced so its not only stopping pal.db. I think NI should take care of this as its obstructing other windows files from syncing to one drive. The registry was another to name but a few. For today I've stopped the service and see what happens tomorrow morning.

     

    Thank you Simon for getting me this far.

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    Esa Kiiski (Edited )

    +1. Exactly same behavior here. Disabling NTKDaemon fixes problems with cloud storage services.

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    Peter Bailey

    I wish NI would chip in as today I wanted to check for updates which then set off the ntkdeamon again and so the non syncing of onedrive stops again.

     

    I know now thanks to Simon where to look and how to stop it but its a pain and yet another thing to do. I would just store pal.db somewhere else if I were a software engineer with NI ( I am a software engineer for real) .

     

    Please NI HELP!

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    Benjamin @ NI

    Hello All,

    Thanks for that feedback and we will bring this up to our product teams regarding this background service. 

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    Pedro Cerd?

    Same issue here. I do use the sounds.com service but I had to disable ntkdaemon from running at startup because it was preventing OneDrive to sync my files. Placing a system file that is permanently in use in the default documents folder is just a bad idea. Hope it gets fixed soon.

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    Simon ORorke (Edited )

    As Pedro says, " Placing a system file that is permanently in use in the default documents folder is just a bad idea."  I'd go further.  Placing an application-specific folder in the user's Documents folder is fine as a default, as it makes it easy to back up the data, unlike data in C:\Users\{user}\AppData, which generally cannot be directly backed up to cloud storage.  But the user should have the option to move the folder elsewhere.  My Documents folder is cluttered with application folders that I've got no control over short of uninstalling the applications.  It was not called (at least in earlier versions of Windows) "My Documents" for nothing.

    In this case, I'm referring to the Native Instruments folder in the user's Documents folder.  Users have been asking for a way to move the folder since at least 2007, judging by a quick search.  So I suspect that the path of the folder must be hard-coded in many different plugins, making it risky for NI to change and, in particular, causing backwards compatibility issues.  Oh, well such things happen, I understand.

    However, one reason why pal.db specifically does not need to be in the user's Documents folder is that, as I understand it, it does not need to be backed up.

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    Peter Bailey

    What they could do for compatibility and backup is release the db and only open it when it's needed, then onedrive could do its job. It's the permanently locked state that's the problem.

     

    The software engineers of which I am qualified as at degree level, should know this. I suspect they tested it on a machine without onedrive but really the team are paid to realise these things.

     

    For sure the developers will fix this, NI could not leave the software in this incoherent state. Microsoft might have something to say about it.

     

     

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    Simon ORorke

    Yes, sorry for going off at a tangent with my comments on the Documents\Native Instruments folder.  Fixing pal.db should be easy in comparison to fixing Documents\Native Instruments as a whole.  Pal.db is new and is surely referenced in few places, perhaps only in ntkdaemon.  Unless the NI developers decide that ntkdaemon does not need to keep a perpetual lock on pal.db, one promising fix would be to move pal.db to the user's AppData\Local\Native Instruments folder.  That folder cannot be backed up by OneDrive or, I expect, most other cloud storage services.  As it happens, it already contains a sub-folder (within the Shared subfolder) for Sounds.com, with which pal.db is used.

    Paradoxically, AppData\Local\Native Instruments contains some files that users may want to back up.  There's one in my case:  Shared/favorites.db3, which tells Komplete Kontrol what its favourite presets are.  To back it up, I copy it manually into a backup sub-folder within my OneDrive folder.

    I'm a recently retired software developer myself, though degrees specific to the profession hardly existed when I started out and I majored in sociology!

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    Simon ORorke (Edited )

    But I reckon you are right, Peter.  It's hard to see why ntkdaemon needs a perpetual lock on pal.db.  (I somehow missed that bit of your post in my previous!)  They presumably did it because they thought nothing else would access it and so they could.  Rectifying that would probably be the simplest fix and would be best practice.  If you only do something restrictive when you need to, you are safeguarding against problems you have not anticipated.

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    Peter Bailey

    I think we are fortunate that Native access is a piece of software that they will have to continually develop so will have frequent updates.

     

    It would be nice to hear what the NI developers are thinking about this. Some feedback would be nice NI.

    This not a hostile thread to NI or the developers, I hope its people like us that add to the NI experience.

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    Simon ORorke

    Indeed.  There should by now be a ticket number for this, so that a fix can be prioritised.  NI, can you please post the ticket number here?

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    Joel Hanghøj-Brooks

    Did this get fixed in the latest update? The file is in use whilst I use NI products, which is to be expected. However, once they are all closed, the syncing stops.  if this is the case, please pass on a thanks to the dev team :) 

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    Simon ORorke

    Hello Joel,

    I've just been into Native Access, which told me that all my NI software is up to date.  But, for me, the problem has not been fixed.

    Cheers,

    Simon

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    Simon ORorke

    I have not had this problem for a few months.  So now it really is fixed for me.

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